We are aware that there are bugs with our online community, and we still working through the bugs list and retrieving missing content. Thank you for your patience.
Terminal life insurance payout
Hi
I have found several very old threads on this topic but they are so old and sadly a lot of the posters have since died so felt it more appropriate to post a new topic.
Have put in for terminal illness payout on my life insurance - terminal rather than critical as I don't have critical illness cover. I know that my onc doesn't like to put a time limit on anything but my quality of life is being seriously compromised by not being able to work properly through chemo (self-employed single mum!) and just wanted to tie up a lot of loose ends, pay various things off, plan my daughters' university fund etc etc. It would just be such a huge weight off my mind regardless of how long I may have (bone and liver mets) At the end of the day it's a terminal diagnosis but no-one has a date stamped on the bottom of their foot!
Anyway, was just wondering for those of you who have had successful (or unsuccessful) claims in this respect, which company were you with?
Lesley xx
I did Lesley...Few years ago now but think it was Norwich Union ( through Tesco).
Good luck with it. I only had a small sum as had taken it out after my BC diagnosis. All gone now
Julie x
hi Lesley
I got a small payout earlier this year, I hadn't upped the premiums when we had extended or house, so I didn't get enough to pay off the mortgage or anything, but it has enabled me to work part-time for a couple of years and have a couple of nice holidays/weekends away. I was with legal and general. They sent a claim form that the oncologist had to sign, he said he would sign it as he couldn't guarantee for certainty that I would be here! but then added that I wasn't to believe that and he thought I had a few years left, but as it had spread to my bones and liver, I could potentially be classed as 'terminal!
It wasn't an easy process and legal and general tried to wriggle out of paying, eventually threatening to decline, because I had previously had a breast cyst that I hadn't declared on the form. But after a board meeting in which an oncologist said that my cyst and BC 11 years later were totally unrelated, I was finally paid out!
Good Luck with it, if you approach your oncologist and ask him/her if they can guarantee that you will definately be here in a year's time, if they can't they may agree to sign the necessary paperwork.
Good Luck with it all, we live with so much crap in our lives that it is nice to have something, that while it no-where near compensates us for the raw deal with have, can bring a little happiness.
Thanks ladies, it's encouraging to know that they seem to pay fairly readily even though they seem to wriggle a bit. Mine is with Friends Provident so hope they are as cooperative as your two companies.
I just know my oncologist is a very optimistic sort and just hope he's been able to bring him to be a bit pessimistic on the necessary form - it's awful really and I certainly don't want to see what's he's written if I can help it but the payout would just make life so much easier. Financial pressure is the last thing any of us need at this stage quite frankly!!
If it's declined I will certainly appeal and get the oncologist to re-write something or other. I also had a non-malignant breast lump (fibroadenoma) about eleven years ago but I did actually declare this when I took out the policy and so hopefully they can't query this.
Just keeping everything crossed at the moment!
xx
Hi Lesley
My GP signed all of my forms to say that I had less than 12 months to live within a few months of my sec diagnosis. She was excellent, none of this parping about that so many of you have to put up with. Equally my Onc did the business to expedite my early retirement from work. It has made a big difference to us and made it so much eaisre for me to rest up as much as possible and not have to worry about finances. I consider myself very lucky - stupid statement really in the circumstances.
I sincerely hope that you find everyone as amenable to helping you sport this out, the last thing you need is hassle from anyone.
Best wishes Sue xx
Thanks Sue, that's really encouraging - I just hope my onc will say the 'right' things - have discussed this in detail with my bcn so hopefully all will be well - it would just be such a massive weight off my mind and make life so very much easier. I know what you mean about feeling lucky, it's not quite the right word but it does explain it very well! I'm self-employed so early retirement isn't an option but if I could cut my working hours in half it would make a huge difference
xx
hello LesleyLP, please post again or PM on how you get on, i am going to look into this too, my circumstances are different in that i am still technically employed, but i get income protection through a benefit my employer offered, i also have 'death in service' life insurance, that would still payout if i die, but not sure they would do early now i have been diagnosedwith secondaries. i will let youknow how i get on, the other post are encouraging though.
r x
Morning Ladies,
Just to let you know im also putting in a claim for terminal illness cover on my life insurance, i have secondaries to bones and liver and about to start tax chemo. Its with Aviva, spoke to onc last week and he was happy to do forms so made a claim on the phone....it now depends on onc receiving the forms and filling them out!!! im just waiting to hear now, was last thurs 27th that i made the claim on the phone so no idea how long it'l take!! Ive got everything crossed they agree to payout, will be such a relief not having to worry about paying bills...food shopping when im having my chemo!! Will let you know what happens
Take care all, Tracey xx
Hi everyone
Well, to say my flabber is gasted or the other way around is an understatement!!
My onc filled in these forms for me in a totally positive and optimistic way, saying it was too early to tell how I'd get on with treatment and he couldn't possibly say I had less than a year etc etc - all very, very encouraging from a health point of view but not so much financially. Spoke to the insurance company on Tuesday who sounded very negative about the whole issue of paying out on the basis of what my onc had said, but they would speak to their chief medical officer today.
Anyway .... had a phone call this morning to say chief medical officer has agreed to pay my claim on the basis that I do have liver mets and could easily mean less than 12 months but that it was impossible to tell. They also said that as my policy has another 14 years to run they were paying out on that basis. So there we go, insurance companies can and do have a heart!! Said I was so grateful as I needed to sort out my children's future etc etc and the lovely man on the end of the phone said to make sure I kept some back to treat myself too!
I'm not exactly celebrating but on the other hand it's going to take such an enormous amount of pressure off me that I think I'll feel better physically anyway.
Good luck to all of you who decide to claim, I'm so glad I've done it!
Lesley xxx
Lesley
That is great news, I hope you are starting to plan a few treats to look forward to!
Tracey I wish you luck in your application too!
Rhian, do you have a pension with your company? I have contacted my pension company and they will pay my pension early, a lump sum, then the pension starts. I don't want to take them up on it yet, as I am still happy working part time, but it's nice to know that it is there!
hi, yes i do though its notbeen going very long, i will drop HR an email. thank you
r x
I have no life insurance except 2 little policies that will pay out about 3k each. We didnt even have insurance on our mortgage (didnt think I need it aged 32...). Anyway, I thankfully do have death in service cover in my teachers pension. I spoke to them several times to see what the best option was once I was dx stage 4 and I decided against taking my pension early as even with all the enhancements, it wasnt much per month with me only being in my 30's. Also they told me that taking early retirement would rule out the death in service payment. In my case the lump sum payment is well over £100k and would pay off our mortage so I decided to keep that in place.
Rhian, are you aware of the benefits you should be able to claim since your secondary dx?? I get ESA and DLA and works out over £200 p/w. Speak to your bcn. onc about the ds1500 form as it should guarantee your claim is successful and processed very quickly. PM me if you want any info on this.
Nicky, Im glad things are still going well at school and you are enjoying working p/t. You are doing great
Tina xx
Tina x
Sorry to pick everyone's brains on this topic yet again, but does anyone know what the tax position is on life insurance payout? I can only find reference to where it says it is usually not taxable, but I think that's when it pays out in the 'normal' way. I assume I'll have to pay tax on the interest on any investments, but surely not capital gains on the lump sum amount?
Hello
from what i understand the payment is tax free, and as you say once the money is used for saving/investment, it becaomes taxable like any other amount of money. See below a bit about tax and insurance protection monies. i get paid a small income protection amount, but do pay tax on it, if my employer would change how they administer the money ie paying tax etc, i could get the tax back or not pay any, as it happens my salaries dept won't, but with hindsight if i had realised there was this loop hole i would have petered them more earlier to insist.
Further information on the tax treatment of PHI policies [Weblink]
Exempt benefits
Permanent Health Insurance (PHI), also known as Income Protection Insurance (IPI) and other names, can be taken out by individuals. It will provide them with income if they're unable to work as a result of ill-health or disability, or even redundancy. Where a claim is made on the policy, any amount paid out is tax-free by virtue of a special exemption, s.735 of the Income Tax (Trading and other Income) Act 2005 (ITTOIA).But what's the tax position if an employer takes out a group scheme and pays the premium as a benefit-in-kind (BiK) for their employees?
Taxman's guidance
The Taxman's guidance on PHI/IPI is not very clear. But we can say for certain that the exemption mentioned above is extended to employees who benefit from a policy taken out on their behalf by their employer (s.743 ITTOIA 2005). So you would expect a pay-out on a policy to be tax exempt. But there's a catch.
Taxman's advice
The Taxman's instruction manual at IPTM6120 says “...If it [the premium] were taxed as a benefit the employee would have, in effect, paid the premium out of taxed income. Payments received under the policy would therefore be exempt.” But what does this mean in plain English?
Taxable or not taxable?
Trap. The tax-free status on PHI/IPI pay-outs is lost where tax relief is allowed to the insured (the employee). If an employee doesn't pay tax on the premium as a BiK, then they've effectively received tax relief. And as a result, they will have to pay tax on money they receive from the policy. What if the employee pays tax on the premium as a BiK?
Tip. Where an employer pays a PHI/IPI premium for an employee who is then charged to tax on it as a BiK, there will be no tax to pay on the income received if the policy pays out.
Good news - bad news
It seems that one way or the other the Taxman is going to get his pound of flesh. But we think there's a neat solution to reduce the tax payable. Tip. PHI/IPI policy premiums are due in advance. Therefore, you can use hindsight to decide whether to declare PHI/IPI premiums for employees under a group scheme as a taxable BiK. That way you can choose the most tax-efficient option.
Example. Assume on May 1 2009 you pay the premium renewal for all your employees included under a group PHI/IPI scheme. It averages out at £1,500 per employee. If no one claims under the policy by the end of the tax year, you can ignore the premium when the time comes to declare BiKs on form P11D in July 2010. Therefore, no employee has to pay tax on the premium. But now assume that one of your employees falls ill in November 2009 and can't work. They claim £7,500 on the policy up to the end of the tax year. When it comes to filling in their P11D you can include the premium, just for that employee, as a BiK. As a result they will not be taxed on the £7,500 but only on the BiK of £1,500. Tax is avoided on £6,000!
The next step
For more information on the tax treatment of PHI policies, visit http://tax.indicator.co.uk (TX 09.14.03).
Reporting premiums as a benefit-in-kind on form P11D will mean policy pay outs are tax-free. But they will be taxable if premiums are left off. Leave the decision until after the tax year has ended and then choose which option is the most tax efficient.
Thanks Rhian, that's really helpful - although the taxman always manages to find a way to get something! Am going to see a good financial adviser to steer me in the right direction for investing etc
Lesley xx
After I was diagnosed with secondary brain mets I asked my onc if I was now 'terminal'. He said I was and Aviva paid out quickly and without a quibble. I then realised that I could claim on two small pensions, and again they paid without problem. The extra money has been more than useful.
I had a critical illness insurance pay out a few years ago from Aviva. I've been diagnosed as terminal this year and L&G paid out on an endowment. The little bit of pension that I have has paid out too.
Vent alert!!!
I have liver, lung and bone mets, diagnosed last June. After much searching around, we finally found our L&G mortgage protection policy that will pay out on terminal illness.
My husband called them the other day and spoke to a guy who asked if my onc had told me I only ad a year to live. My husband explained my diagnosis and said the outlook was less than rosy and then the guy said that unless my onc had specifically told me I only had a year then they wouldn't send out the forms!
The thing which really p's me off is that I don't want to know how long I've got (although as a nurse, I'm not daft!) and I would never ask. In fact I've told my onc I'm a 'day-at-a-time' kind of gal and don't want stats.
So I am now in a position where I have to see my onc and ask him to tell me I've only got a year so I can get the damn forms which I'm sure he will be more than happy to sign off on. I can understand that L&G have to be cautious but why not just send the damn form to the onc without insisting I sit through a "You're stuffed" conversation?
Rant over!
Deep breath.
Take the dogs out!
Laurie x
it is Tax free dear.
I'm very intreasted in what your saying I have lung mets and node inv and mine is the same as you must be a l g thing I don't want to know either and have decided to just wait as we never get told by onc tbh as I don't think they really know either be intreasting to read how you get on as unless you got crit illness they don't want to know gd luck Laura
Hi Lesley, I received my critical insurance payout 2 years ago and yes it was tax free!
Big hugs
Stella x
Alesta, usually the forms are sent direct to your consultants to fill in and unless you have specifically requested sight of them then you won't see them.
You need confirmation from your oncologist that you are in his view diagnosed as terminal, ring the insurers and get the forms and if they do come to you first make sure you tick the box that says you don't want to see the reports. There may be basic information that you need to fill in on the form and then pass it to your consultant for him to do his bit. He would then get it sent straight back to the insurer with no further involvement from you.
Therefore you would not at any point need to read anything relating to your condition. You can maintain the level of knowledge you have agreed between you and your consultant.
Reading that back it sounds awful I know and I hope no offence is taken or upset caused on such a delicate issue. Wishing you all the best and I hope you get the money so that you can sort matters out.
Ali
Ali
Thanks for that - no offense taken!
I've already been through this with one policy. They sent me the forms, I filled a bit in, passed them to my GP and they've gone off.
The issue for me with the L&G one is the fact that they've told my husband they won't send out any forms to anyone until he calls them back and tells them that my consultant has verbally told me I've only got a year. They also told my husband that they have software on their phone that picks up if people are lying (not quite in those words but that was the jist of it).
I'm working myself up to incandescence. Figure I'll be ready to call and give them what for by the end of the week...
Laurie x
That is not on is it. What matters is what the consultant writes on the document and puts his signature to, not what you say to some administrator on a desk.
Hard though it may be, if you can easily get hold of your consultant (and remember he or she will be familiar with this sort of process) and explain the situation, go through the motions with them and get the money you can then put in a written complaint about the attitude of their administrator.
No matter what the insurance company's stance is on this, there are ways and ways of talking to people who are seriously ill. Having dealt with these companies for nearly 20 years I am appalled that they have thrown their weight around in this manner. Yes they have to be aware of fraudulent claims but honestly! This person was taking that to the nth degree for sure.
Best of luck, if you want any help PM me and if I can help you I will.
Ali
Hi,
The first thing I will say of course is that once you have pursued this if L & G pay your claim then you will of course know that your consultant has agreed you are likely to have less than a year. So in reality you should only go ahead if you are prepared for that outcome.
Having said that if you want to go ahead then I suggest you write to L & G and make a complaint about the information you have been given, and tell them you want to make a claim. Explain why you do not wish to have a direct conversation with your oncologist. They cannot penalise you for complaining, there is a strict industry code and timescales for them to respond. If they reject your complaint and refuse to consider a claim you can ask for a letter of deadlock and then complain to the financial ombudsman (at no cost to yourself...but L & G will be charged a fee!!).
I wouldn't hurt to ask your oncologist to write directly to L & G as well, but in any event they will get a report directly from him later.
Thanks Lakeslover
I've emailed my consultant and will discuss it with him at my next appointment.
I'm a nurse and am aware of my prognosis and am prepared to have the conversation with my onc. Given the nature of metastatic BC, it could be a couple of years, I could throw an embolus or my liver could pack in with the next chemo.
I think the thing that rankles with me is the attitude of the insurance company. I'm quite happy for them to send the forms to my onc, it's the "You're onc HAS TO TELL you you've only got a year" Where's the patient choice in that. The choice to know every detail or just to be happy with the broad brush strokes. I was always an abstract rather than a still life kind of gal!
Ho hum... Onward and upwards!
I absolutely agree with you. If you have the strength complain about their attitude. It may help others who follow.
By the way as well as having BC I run the underwriting and claims team at a different Life Company. My team would not treat anyone like that (even before my diagnosis).
Actually at this moment I think I might be even more angry than you are....it's attitudes and behaviour like that that gets the insurance industry as a whole a bad name.
Sorry, rant over.
PM me if I can help.
Laurie, I would definitely make a complaint. I've recently contacted L&G re. critical life cover. I had a very pleasant woman on the phone who said that they would contact my GP for all relevant details - after having asked for my history - and that once they received the forms, they would contact me. I also received a letter stating this and an opening sentence saying how sorry they were that I was ill (words to that effect) and a further telephone call, stating that they would contact my GP if he hadn't responded in 2 weeks, and would then call me again to update me. She also stated that you (as the client) have the option of seeing/not seeing the correspondence from the doctor. Asking to see the correspondence delays the claim, I'm not sure why.
Nearly all references (DLA etc.) to terminal illness state a life expectancy of less than a year, oncologists are well versed (or should be) in this and them consenting to sign a form does not mean that your prognosis has drastically changed. It's an emotive issue, so both health professionals and insurers should treat their clients with the utmost respect and sensitivity. If you feel that L&G have been remiss, I urge you to file a complaint - I'm convinced that they will take it seriously.
I hope the situation gets resolved (mine too!) to your satisfaction.
Best wishes
Alison
Thanks for all the advice girls - knew I could count on you all
Laurie x
Grr, am so mad! Put in terminal illness claim last November, Onc took ages to fill in the forms but we had the "discussion" about the one year survival malarkey, and I was supposed to see the report before it was sent. Had a phone call on Friday from Insurance company - woman said my prognosis was "not too bad at the moment" so they couldn't pay out. Onc had written that I was terminal but could not predict survival. It is doing my head in - my first Oncologist told me back in september that median survival time for someone with secondaries was 18 months and painted a very black picture indeed. Tho I am on oral chemo now and with a different Oncologist, this "picture" cannot be unpainted. That money would have made such a difference. How can insurance companies demand this one year survival when no-one can be sure how long any of us will survive? Fed up.
Dear Happy Feet, I am so sorry that you are having to deal wijth this as well as our illness's. I have to say I recently had a terminal cover payout with, not sure if I'm allowed to say their name, with Scottish Widows. They were so caring yet professional, respectful and helpful. They kept calling me to let me know how my claim was progressing. My onc was also lovely, we had previously had The Chat, about my poor prognosis and he backed this up in his letter. Who knows how long we have, but I hope its not too soon. Can u call your insurance co and ask their medical officer to look again and reconsider?xx